Monday, July 9, 2012

The Catch 22 of Dust 514?

The Catch-22 of Dust 514

"It's Deja Vu all over again!"
Y. Berra

  CCP... boy, I wish we could sit on the phone for a few minutes and talk. If we could I would tell you:
1. DUST 514 could be a really great game.
2. I applaud the scale of what you are trying to achieve.
3. I think you have overlooked a couple key issues here.
4. If this goes bad, it could go REALLY, really bad.

 Lemme just nerd out for a minute and throw some shit at the wall and see if I can paint a picture of the possible future that 514 might experience based on some stats and a bit of experience:

The first number I'll throw out is 60 million.
That's the number of player accounts on ps3 according to this site:

You guys know this already though, based on your relationship with Sony. I'm positive you've seen the data. You did your due diligence long ago before you started the white boarding of the game.
Then 24.
That's the number of game genres on the ps3 according to this site:

Another example:
that's the current online ps3 player count for BF3 at the time of this writing according to this site:

Just a few more relevant numbers we need...
In 2009, EvE had 66,856 planets of which 44,351 were non gas planets according to this site:

Based on data from CCP so far, it appears each planet has 12 districts to fight over.
Then we divide the Planets amongst Hi, Lo and Null sec zones.

So that was stats, now let's look at theory:

How many of those folks in BF3 are in "True HARDCORE" mode? very few to none. The masses want ez mode. Take a minute and go look and you'll see. When you go to HC filter, it cuts the number of active servers down to maybe a page or two. Casual mode/EZ mode? pages and pages and pages... FF off. Mini map on. Red Dots. Auto Healing. 3d spotting. Banned weapons. Just digital babysitting at its finest. Pure garbage.
 The majority play the same CQ maps and they tend to take the easiest route to whatever the goal is, which is usually XPs and leveling and not winning. They tend to cheat a lot. They tend to use VERY lowbrow game play as a means to an end. The game play has become about as casual as possible and some rooms are literally an embarrassment to gaming. Knowing this, the majority of the gamers from the community will be found in Hi sec when given the choice in 514.

You can see it based on current in game behaviour. It's not a secret.
If we take the average online bf3 community number and divide it by the 3 sec zones, weighting it toward the Casual vs HC mode numbers on bf3,you will find that probably 30 to 50k will be in hi sec, 10-15 or so in Lo and maybe the same 5k to 7k HC clans that always show up for new releases, only to be disappointed later.

Assuming even a high of over 10k in null sec, based on the 2009 numbers of planets, there would be no need for combat. The multiverse could easily be divided up with no loss or expense
because there are so many planets and so few COGENT clans to fight over them that in the end it'll be a First Person Accounting game of folks moving money around in "diplomacy" style moves. Or more likely, some clan with numbers will soak up the other smaller ones, will go out and make the typical lowbrow mistake of conquering the other planets in the first 1 to 3 months and from there the whole thing is a single clan deadlock. Game over, everyone go home.

I think since most PS3 fps games tend to lean toward having the larger player counts vs the ps3 sports games, ps3 kids games, etc (discounting mmos which are few in number) then most ps3 fps players assume that MOST of the total community or "everyone" on the ps3 are playing in this same genre as we are.
I think WE think we have the lions share of the market. More then likely it's more evenly dispersed or more likely still, it's actually balanced away from the fps market and toward another genre probably  the kids market. We are a "niche" genre at the moment and the "hardcore competitive first person console shooter market" is even more niche. If this was not true the market would be saturated with fps games. As it is, we usually have about 3 to 4 per year, of which 1 is worth playing for any extended period of time.
The most recent game similar to 514 has long since fallen into "cult status" with barely mentionable player counts and did so shortly after retail based on unwise decisions of the devs.
You guys seem to be more committed to the core concepts of what it would take for a game the scale of 514 to succeed but that may actually be held against you later.

The question will be can you guys see your way through and not back down or out of anything you are setting up when things get tough and the forums start to smell bad and gather flies.

For the masses, you're hiding the game. These kids won't understand hi, lo and null. If you label it "ez" "medium" and "hard" you will save yourselves and them a lot of trouble.

Look at it this way: they are going to read the sign, jump in the deep end of the pool and then scream that it's YOUR fault that they drowned because "they didn't understand it was THAT deep".
The skill system is gonna confuse the CRAP out of these kids and when they spend money AND make a bad decision on the tree that they can't undo or that takes a while to recover from,
they are gonna scream that it's your fault as well. These are not folks who are willing to wait. If they paid for it, they want it to work now! Some of the bastards want it now even if they didn't pay yet. Every bad decision they make is your fault after they give you money to play your game. 'Cuz they're stupid.

But this is the ultimate problem we face and maybe some of you players can attest to it's truth:
Now it's been said I'm notorious for taking games "too seriously". I've been saying all along "your k/d says nothing about your quality" and that true teams in a real setting like 514 will come to the surface, as long as the devs don't continually hobble them with nerfs and limits to their ability to work as a team.
With 514, when you can look square at a guys or gals stat page and SEE that "Yeah, you have a 5.0 kd. you also lose about 10,000 isk per match you play. At this point, your profit margin is such that in a few matches, you should be outta gear and outta money. Oh and your win/loss is all losses and before you bitch about your team mates all sucking, your k/d is why you lost, because you were too busy going for the kill, not for the win, but as always you are too fucking stupid to understand this same concept which has been in your fucking face since BF2 came out on ps2 and you STILL can't seem to learn." that is going to change the community and is going to be WAY too much for the majority of casual gamers to comprehend and or handle.

We always knew you sucked... now we can put a dollar value to it! "Our team is worth 50k less with you on it because of your shitty earnings!" WAY too much for some of these folks to grasp.
 That's the majority of the community we are talking about here.   
Based on the mic chatter that i could hear during my time on beta, knowing that it was exactly what the real game will play like ONLY in the sense that for a moment I, just like every other casual gamer who hides in Hi sec, was thrown into a game with a bunch of randoms just like me, 514 is possibly seriously screwed.

1. You are trying to be an MMOFPS. I think this is a bad move. You need to focus on being a Persistent First Person Shooter and ignore your attempt to be an "mmo". Because without "sandbox mmo", it's just not a REAL MMO. Instanced MMO is just not the same thing. And when you guys split your genres like that, even if it's just for advertising and promo purposes,it's misleading, kinda. You are trying to please 2 markets. Instead of creating a new "species" or "branch" of fps, you are trying to blend 2 genres together and so 50% of 1 market + 50% of another market = 2 disappointed markets because it wasn't 100% "their" market. I would only categorize it as a PFPS for now and wait til you add more sandbox features to call it home. As it is, PlayStation Home is more of an  MMO then 514 at the moment.

2. The biggest problem though, is the numbers. The game requires HUGE numbers in order to work. The clans will have to be in the thousands just to function at a scale that will make planetary war worth while. If you took ALL of the current bf3 player count and dropped it on top of the eve planet count from 2009, you get roughly 1 planet per player. If the idea behind 514 is that the players will be their own "endgame" and that in game interaction between the clans IS the "storyline" to follow, that eventually 514 will rival EvE in it's rich history of player interaction, yet all this assumes that the MAJORITY of the community is up for it, uh, then Houston... we have a problem. As it stands today, the majority of the community will never SEE the parts of the game that will make it legendary, because they will be in Hi sec which will have the most players most of the time just playing random pickup matches for no real loot. And because the clans will both NEED the casuals to be present to make a match start but will also NOT want to play with them on the same team in random pickup rooms, then the casual gamers are going to tend toward hating the clans even more because of the control they have over null sec, with all it's riches just out of reach because the casual gamer can't get in a clan and once they do, they realize their clan can't get anything done because they total 28 people, most of which are casuals just like him or her.

 Case in point, the bf3 community went batshit when bf3 switched to private servers so the clans could play as teams again. And these were servers the clans were PAYING to own. Something as simple as private servers turns the whole thing into a screaming match. And yet the game circles the drain, because what good is a clan that stacks in pub rooms to beat up random casuals on non teams?

The TRUE competitive ps3 bf3 community is small enough to count in the thousands. 514 needs HUNDREDS  of thousands of players rotating in and out at all times in order to feel "alive". Once the air goes out of the tires and the kids and casuals flood Hi sec, it should turn into typical low brow stat tracking game play and all the value of the planetary stuff will get watered down if not ignored completely.
 And with Null sec being the most valuable and most risky, the casuals who enter it foolishly will pay a very harsh price. I dare say that one move in the first 3 to 6 months will be the cause of many a lost player.

So we have this giant catch 22 where potentially there is this huge game with all this diversity and challenge and teamwork and land to conquer, but the ability of the targeted market is actually below that required to make the game work on it's final intended scale. The assumption that the players will "just catch up and learn as they go" is INSANE as I've personally sat and watched for over 6 years as players came and went and clans formed and broke up and reformed and out of thousands of people maybe 5 or 6 actually got better at gaming or teamwork because they learned something along the way that wasn't a new glitch or low brow tactic. The middle of the Bell Curve is thick for a reason. Most folks can't get out of it in the right direction. 514 will not make them any better by virtue of its existence, yet the need to BE better at any given moment for the game to succeed, the expectation, will be higher because folks will now have money riding on it, not just ego. and some folks, REAL money. Fuck that up and see how fast your friends list empties out. So the game increases the pressure as relates to the NEED to do well in a match or for a team to be "good", but again, the market is the same average market, the pool is the same average pool of players to choose from. The consequences for sucking have changed, but not the player pool. The good players and teams already know each other and know their fishbowl. That group is small. It stays small from game to game because the majority of people don't get better, they stay average from game to game. Just because the game got better as a game doesn't mean the players are better for it. "Same AI, different beta"

You throw in the new grind style for the skill tree and maybe even realize that we are still only really talking about Hi sec here and that when it comes to Null sec and the fact that not only are the clans encouraged to run the show but are mostly immune from any punishment for "bad" behavior, then the casual team vs the clan random match  becomes the very exact point of departure for some folks who may even stick around temporarily to see the match unfold just to see what a REAL team is, but permaquit the game after the ego destroying ass whipping handed down by some clan that actually has half a brain. More likely the casual gamer will view it as Null sec being the place where clans can be sanctioned assholes and anything that works goes and basically Null will turn into Pub Stack zone. Game called on account of douchebaggery, everybody go home. Nothing to see here.

I think CCP is not only asking an awful lot from the clans that is not apparent yet but worse, they are EXPECTING too much from the MAJORITY of the casual fps gaming community, which on the ps3, isn't really  what you would consider epic in numbers enough to match the potential for the game.

You've made a game so big and so beautiful that most of the people you made it for may be incapable of doing well at it and the ones that will, will number in the thousands, small enough to split up the multiverse over a couple meetings in Skype without firing a single shot.

I hope I'm wrong on this, I really do because I would like the game to last and be as successful if not more successful then EvE. As a player I plan on supporting it fully as long as it supports the community. I'm just hoping there is enough real community here for you guys to support.



  1. *applause* now that was a great article.

  2. no kidding. good points.


    Apologies as I omitted this site link above.
    This would be the link for the number of genres for the ps3 at the time this article was writtien.


  4. whew! long read but very well done

  5. Finally a good article , *tips hat

  6. I don't know about you guys but according to all the commitment you put into this article and how much you seem to care about the game is very similar to how eve players play there game.....its mature and I don't mean "rated M for mature" but really adult mature, I bow down to who wrote this article.... If anything you are already a true eve player :D

    1. "but really adult mature"

      You do realize that adult professionals do not curse when trying to be taken seriously, do you?

    2. Maybe but I was just happy that the game is attracting people who want this game to succeed. :D I want it to be the best game of its genre and well diverse conversations only help....only if they are constructive and don't yell there....misguided/unhelpful opinions.
      I meant no disrespect :) and I probably was to quick to reply and spoke to my hearts contents with out reading it probably....I guess all the immature kids who hell LMAO do that to, I'm only human who...... well is an child in somethings but an adult in others.
      To quick to judge, to late to regret.

    3. Scratch that...."To quick to judge, to late to regret."

      To quick to regret, to late to judge.

    4. Or the other way be your own judge and judge me you probably will.

  7. So you want another cod or bf3??????

  8. I dont agree with this view. Havign the universe with "x" planets dosent mean you have to have a presence over all of them. Of all the planets, there will be a small % where EVE alliances will hold economical operations, and these will be the targets for an attack contracted by an eve alliance, that will need to be defence.

    Plus, if indeed planets will be tied to systems sovereignty, it dosent matter if theres millions of planets, the only planets that will matter are the dozen that are inside systems that are under attack.

    So be cautious, having a gazilion of planets dosent mean we need a gazilion of players. Just as it is in EVE, whee most systems are just empty space.

    And, I am happy if this isnt a carebear FPS, the harder the better. People that stay are the ones that can show comitment, because thats what the game needs. Flavour of the month players wont stay for anything anyway.

  9. When did this site start posting articles worth reading? Thoughtful opinion not wrapped in sensationalism?

    I think I'm going to sit down later to re-read this and consider each of your points. Whether I agree with it all or not, thank you, for taking the time to write this.

  10. The fact that the game is hard wont be the only thing to drive people away. If CCP can't make the "shooting" mechanics of the game good that will be it right there. That and if they can't balance kb/m support which is what I truly believe is what will shoot them in the foot!

  11. Whoops you missed the biggest point that not all planets are actually going to be available for combat upon release! The only planets we are going to start with are the temperate planets, then there is the storm, barren, gas and the rest.

    Pretty sure territory will be fiecely fought over, also if we can take a lesson from EVE its that there is no such thing as enough territory with alliances such as GoonSwarm wanting to take over the whole game!

  12. I think that whoever wrote this article needs to do more research into EVE and know a little more about human nature.

    If there is territory to fight over, people will do so. Even if people hold a lot of ground, they will want to hold more.

    Also appealing to casual gamers will get you a crowd that only moves on and leaves the game behind. By making the game for more advanced players they will have a crowd that stays for a long time and wants to get involved.

    I understand that casual gamers make up a huge part of the market though and from a marketing stand point you want to have something for them. Well high sec is for them. Maybe it is a bit much, but at the same time I think a lot of people wouldnt be proud to say the game was too tough to understand. I think a lot of their e-peens would be best stroked by saying that the game seen as complex by many is 'easy' for them to understand.

    EVE does well because its difficulty makes it infamous. It does well because it attracts and keeps the serious gamers. It lasts because it offers more than other games.
    If DUST follows that same example it will do well.

    Do not judge the console gamer market by previous console games. Just look at the whole gamer market and understand that people are coming to the PS3 for this game. I have seen PC players buy PS3 and Xbox CoD fanboys abandon their system for a PS3 for DUST 514.

  13. nice article man

  14. Mr. Bassmeant - As time moves on and technology advances we should expect video games to be more complicated and involving. Developers should not allow themselves to be held back by gamers who don't want to think.

    When Pong came out in the early 70s it was a revolution - now look around at all the incredible games we have right now. Why should it stop there? It can't anyway, the market is too competitive!

    I think I may have gone off topic a little, but SILENTSAM69 covered most of what I was thinking when I read your article with regards to territory and there not being enough players to fight over it all!

    Also, I disagree with your point that CCP need to make a new breed of fps instead of blending two genres together and trying to tap both markets. They are creating a new breed of fps, by combining the two genres and by doing so they will create a new market all together!

    Someone has to lead the way into the future of gaming, it looks like CCP have taken it upon themselves and I wont be the only one to follow them there!

  15. If it flops, big deal. It's all hype until they release a "AAA FPS." We know CCP do MMO, but as this article mentions, that's only half the bargin. I'd rather it works out well. Could be a cracker. But I preferred privateer ect to EvE, because of the game play, which tbh, is very similar in many respects to FPS games. Best of luck CCP.

  16. not every planet has to be "in play" though.

    how many NULL-SEC planets are there? it may not be big enough for the both of us after all.

  17. @Alex Black a little game called planetside is an mmofps came out before Dust was even thought of. Planetside 2 will blow this out of the water and it's rumored for a console port for next gen PS4 has a late 2013 release.

    1. Rumours indeed. Planetside 2 is going to be awesome, I agree, but it's going to be on the PC. Also, Planetside will not be linked to another mmo on a different platform with a shared economy et cetera. PS4 probably wont be out until 2014 and CCP have already said they will port DUST on to that too. DUST will blow Planetside out the multiverse.

    2. Comparing Planetside 2 and DUST 514 will get you nowhere. The two are very different ideas.

      The fact that Planetside 2 is a sequel shows how different it is. DUST 514 will not need sequels. it will have updates the way EVE does.

      DUST 514 offers connection to EVE and that is the whole point. The politics and drama of EVE are amazing and will be great to connect to. It offers a lot more depth than something that is just a shooter.

      Also DUST 514 will be available on the PS4 and will be upgraded for it eventually as the game is upgraded over time, just as EVe is upgraded over time.

    3. No I read somewhere that sony will release the PS4 late 2013. Also Matt Higby said they are working on the port for next gen. I really could care less about the connectivity to EVE if the FPS side doesn't work right. The article is 100% when this game connects to EVE the FPS will be more like a minigame. I can't even consider it a MMO (Massively Multiplayer Online) because the player count is so low and it wont go much higher with UR3. Homefront ran UE3 and could only manage 25v25.

      Before you say oh there are 15 districts per planet and there will be people fighting in space. I can't see those battles I can't take part in other district battles. It'll feel more like MAGs dom where it is 4 32v32's split on the map. Sure I hope Dust makes it but right now it's not looking good IMO.

    4. I think you don't see what dust really offers compared to planetside 2.

      The games are similar in aspects but there is one thing I cant seem to shake of me which concerns planetside.....its deep but its no where near deep as dust, I see planetside 2 as more of an casual game :/ I like the graphics and the detail but in the end its just not enough for me. In the demos I have seen its amazing how the game looks and it seems very very fun and big and open but somehow I am drawn more to dust... I can compair dust and eve all day but I just don't see why people like to see dust as on the same level as planetside , it doesn't make sense to me, they are different in many ways, to many to consider them the same, sure some elements are similar like in the way dust and planetside both can have huge maps but then again dust is instant-matches while planetside is one huge map on one planet, limitations are on both games, dust as it is now is more limited then planetside "I think no one can disagree with that" but dust well I see so many possibilities with what the game can offer and for me that's the ride I wanna be in.

  18. some of u are missing his point. he's saying most players are casual will and stick to hi sec running around playing deathmatch. that null sec will be parcelled out among a small number of organized groups.

    1. like...every other game? I dont understand your point.

  19. So, the basic argument is that out of 60 Million PS3 owners, only a touch over 1% play a game that is, to paraphrase, "easy mode garbage." Thus, Dust 514 needs to play like another garbage easy mode clone, so it can attract that same user base?

  20. What about the thousands that play EVE in null sec? They can not buy a PS3 and help fight over the territory they already own?

    This is one of the problem with people looking at stats without really thinking about context and human nature and so on.

    1. But then Dust would still be considered a failure if only players from EVE play. Dust supposed to branch out to a different type of gamer. If all they get is EVE players they might as well port it to PC. I personally believe that Dust was/is just a big marketing campaign to get more people to play EVE. Look at how there sub base went up when they announced EVE subs would get in early. Dust is a great MMO but not a great shooter.

    2. What makes you think I limited to only EVE players? Obviously there are thousands of non-EVE players that want to play and I know or many of them. I was just mentioning that EVE players will be there to help fill the ranks.

      Some of the EVE corps with thousands of members are not just EVE corps, but are connected to many other gamers.

      The game will help bring people to EVE and also bring other gamers to the PS3. It already has done so and will continue to do so.

  21. Anybody that doesn't blindly love Dust 514 is now considered a fool.

    Great ideas don't make great games if the rest is missing.

  22. Good article, well thought out. However, you missed a few things.

    Not every planet will be contested. To be contested, an EVE corp has to put a contract out. Normally, an EVE corp won't overextend, meaning it will attack the fringe star systems first. This limits the number of planets that are able to be attacked. This should cut the number of potential planets by about a factor of 10, if not more. Clans in DUST don't fight for sov of planets for themselves. Hence, the mutual support between EVE and DUST.

    As you say, people want "ez mode". To do so, they will want the best weapons, the best vehicles, the best suits. The only way to do so will be to earn money, and if they risk the best loadout in highsec, they will have a net loss, and be unable to use that loadout. This inherent bias will drive more people to lowsec and null. Yes, they may lose that loadout, but they will more than make up for it in the money that they earn.

    Unfortunately, though, you may be right about the casual gamers being driven away. Already you see people comparing the game to BF3 or COD unfavourably. People's expectations of a shooter have been, ever since Halo, of a certain formula regarding gameplay and metagame. KDR has been held in greater regard in FPS's than achieving objectives, but I hope that most newbies realise that DUST will be objective-based rather than kill-based.

    This game will be a breath of fresh air, but I'm afraid it may choke the casual gamers instead of breathing new life into the genre.

  23. People discussed this article on the Dust 514 forums...then CCP closed that thread.

  24. Well, EvEtards will be EvEtards. And cry when they get called EvEtards. That thread got deleted too

  25. The skill tree is already enough to put of the idiots already not to mention all the fittings and restocking

    The game itself isnt hard but compared to other shooters on the market it is mainly because the games have been dumbed down in each release

    Also on DUST release everything will not be available so all those planets wont matter because only a handful will be up for grabs

    DUST needs to stay DUST, you says thers 2 markets but all i see is one big casual market atm will every shooter being the same generic shite year after year

    Players want something different, they need something different, gaming in general is dumbed down and getting worse with new COD clones every year ofering the same old thing

    EVE is hard but successful, stick with the game and it rewards you for not giving up and DUST is lining up to be the same

    Its going to be a make or break for CCP but it will consistantly offer something different than every other FPS which is out or coming out in the future and that is what will set it apart

    1. It's more MMORPG with an FPS mini game attached. It's not just the complexity that will turn people away the lacking FPS will the fact that this person has more skills than me and not SKILL will turn people away. This FPS wont and will not be determined by skill but skills, and politics. I work and when I game I want to relax not work.

      You'll here this right here. If people looked the other way because MAG was to hard hard who the fuck is gonna play Dust besides the circle holders who sucked at MAG and got stomped by lol. They need a game where skills and lol politics in a video game will help them win and not skills

    2. Wrong

      Player skill determines who wins

      If you dont aim at the enemy you cannot kill thus you cannot move them out of your way thus you cannot cap the objective and complete the mission

    3. I think it is funny that people would deny that you need skill as a shooter to be good at this game.

      Headshots make a huge difference, and limb shots take down very little. I love that it is not like CoD where hitting an extender finger blows the whole body away.

      MAg did not fail because it was hard. It failed because no one ever heard of the game and it was hardly advertised. That is the only reason MAG failed. Hopefully DUST 514 gets a lot more attention, which i think it already has.

    4. That's not a mini-game, it's a mini-gun! There's a difference between work and effort "Anon".

  26. Don't agree with everything but finally a normal article. You can tell Harmon didn't write this.

  27. really good points u brought up

  28. CCP has said there will be about 7,000 planets

  29. I like this guy! We think exactly the y same thing!

  30. I believe this man does not know Eve. What makes Eve great is what will make Dust great, and if you don't understand that, you don't understand what CCP is doing.

  31. theschizogeniousJuly 13, 2012 at 8:41 AM

    to focus on just one argument for a second

    bassment you were talking about that there would be only 6 or so thousand ppl that will venture into low-sec.

    what i think you are forgetting or that you did not know about are the masses of eve players that are buying a ps3 just for dust514.

    you said only a handful of players would go to null-sec there are corps/alliances in eve numbering in the tens of thousands and if only 1 in 10 of the eve players have/will buy a ps3 and plan on playing dust then you can bet that a few of them will be part of large alliances that already hold sov in null/low-sec.

    take goonswarm for instance im pretty sure that they have guys amongst them that own ps3's. im pretty sure that they are used to eve's difficulty wont turn tail and run at the first sign of a tough game.

    and the game being free will probably bring in more players who will try it for themselves.
    and keeping those guys there isnt only the job of the game the players can help to by making it a real "mature" experience in stead of shouting obnoxious nonsense like, "how do i mine for fish?"

    you also talk about null-sec as if it will be like a stacked bf3 server. let me explain somethin as it is apparent tht while you may have played the game it appear as if you dont fully understand some of its concepts.

    first off you cannot simply jump into a null-sec game you must be contracted.

    secondly if you go into a null-sec game and dont expect a tough fight then this isnt the game for you. null-sec is player owned for the most part. so that means that you are waltzing into someones house and trying to evict them.

    only a fool would expect the owner to just rollover and die, the game wont be vanilla every weapons platform to supply depot will be payed for by a players hard earned isk and people arent fond of losing money real or otherwise, just look at monoply.

    others have said this but i shall reitterate it

    they are only releasing the temperate planets at launch.

    and last i knew they said that that was about 4,500 was the initial release amount even with 8-12 districts per planet i cant imagine a corp saying "well now we have half a planet now seems a good time to stop." no! i cannot think of a single person that would be fine with only a fraction of a fraction of a percent ownership of the initial planets in new eden. they will more likely say "YEAH!! were halfway done with this planet lets finish up here start collecting money from this planet, and move onto the next one!!

    this isnt meant to be a bashing of your article just some criticism, overall im happy that something from this site could give a thoughtful and usefull insite into the game that addressed a few apparent to possible problems instead of the sensationalizing of random gossip and unconfirmed rumors concerning other people that have no effect on the game whatsoever.

    and quickly to address the "need for huge clans in null-sec" you only need 16 on to form one side and you can create a contract if you dont have the numbers. who knows a highlevel guy may just want to help a new corp get on its feet.

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